Prime Minister Edi Rama: Welcome.

-Thank you, Prime Minister. I’ll just try to break the ice. I have a question concerning the recent protests. We’ve just landed here yesterday, and obviously there are a lot of things going on in the city.

My question would be: these protests seem to be just very focused on specific issues with development, coastal development, etc. How concerned are you, from the perspective of you being prime minister and head of government, that these protests become broader and they did encompass more and more issues and become kind of a broader movement? Is this something that’s kind of a concern for you?

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Listen, first, this is a free country. I have been in protests myself, and I know the taste of having difficulties protesting. I know even the taste of blood when a protest happens in a non-free environment.​​​​​​ In this boulevard, not a century ago but less than 20 years ago, or exactly in 2011, have been killed four protesters with assault guns that were aimed at them from this building.

So to me, it’s a different era. It’s a different moment in history. And it’s really a very good thing to see that people can protest with no problem. Although it may look like the most trivial thing, but it’s not. It’s another achievement of this decade. An achievement that Albanians fought for a long time. Not only during communism, but also after.

So this is number one. Number two, this protest has been provoked by a despicable act of violence by a security guard against a protester at the border of the site we are talking about for weeks now, or maybe since a bit more than a week, and about which we took the fastest and the harshest measures.

The guard has been arrested, the head of police of Vlora has been discharged, the police unit that was on site and didn’t intervene immediately to stop the guard from doing that despicable thing has been put under investigation, the security company has been lifted the license to be a security company lifted, so this we what we did.

And then, of course, the act of violence that kind of fueled the sentiment through the video that became viral created, kind of opened the path for more, for raising questions about the development, raising questions about the property, raising questions about the project.

And then, suddenly, the subject became broader, became broader and now touches everything, which is okay. But we are not anymore in the dynamic of a protest of some people or many people, whatever you may call it, although I have seen reports about hundred thousand, which are quite ridiculous.

But it doesn’t matter. I don’t want to talk about numbers, although the numbers are, to me, quite modest, but I want to talk about substance. So the thing changed because suddenly there is no project. So the protest became massive with the chant, “Cancel the project, cancel the project.” I said, Okay, we can cancel it immediately. Show me the project. There is no project.

And it’s not about me. It’s not about Albania. It’s about democratic societies to reflect upon how, half truths can become bigger and bigger lies by hour and by hour and by hour, and can inflate a whole society, a whole environment that is no longer an environment within some borders, but it’s an environment all over the platforms. While we are not in the substance anymore, we are somewhere else. As you said, there are all kinds of things being said, which are legitimate for people that want to say them or want to believe them.They have nothing to do with me, with us.

I don’t know if I answered the question properly, but I’m sure that others want to ask and I will try to complete.

-Thank you. You said there’s no project, but then why was a fence built at this very beach we’re talking about? And why is Balkan Investigative Network reporting that there is a company called Zvernec South Adriatic Development that has a permit to build in this area if there is no project?

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Because BalkaInsight, whatever it’s called, is lying. It’s very simple. And this is not about who says what. This is about who proves what. It’s a different thing. I’m not here to tell lies, and I’m not here to get lies. If someone says there is a building permit, it should show the building permission.

On the contrary, if you ask me, and if you are interested in facts, I can tell you that there is a process, yes. There is a company, yes, there is a company. For sure, there is a company.

What does it mean? If there is a company, it does not mean that there is a project. It’s a company; it’s an expression of interest. It is a process that started with the authorities. It’s private property, to make it very clear, because it’s so unsettling when you go through all this chain and chain, endless chain of posts, and you see things that are so inaccurate and so disgusting.

If I were not in this position and fully aware of the facts, I would be disgusted to see that my government, my prime minister, is selling an Island without even explaining why or what will happen. Of course, I would be disgusted. But is it true? Number one.

Number two, Zvernec and the Island are two different projects. It’s not the same project. What does it mean all the time publishing and retweeting and redistributing the Island, the protesters, the fence, the this, the that, to create something that is totally disgusting if you see it from the angle of the one who is not is in Boulevard but also is in Austria or is in America. And to project this image of Albania like a banana f.. republic where where, where islands are sold to oligarchs like this and when the country is sold because there is a prime minister there that is serving the oligarch, what is this? If this is true is disgusting but is it true? This is my question, so you think that you have brought facts here that prove the contrary of what I’m saying. No, you didn’t. The company is created. The expression of interest is there. The agreement is private. It’s how every democratic country develops. I don’t know a country in the democratic realm that can prevent privates to have their agreements. If you know one, tell me.

I don’t know a country where the government or the agencies are proactive and going and telling the privates don’t dare to do agreements. I knew a country where privates were not allowed to be privates and where foreigners were all enemies and were all a bad influence. I knew. I fought against it, and thanks to God we won over it. It’s a fence.

My dear, every private owner in this country has the right to ask permission to build a fence, to put a fence around his property. Every private owner in this country is fighting against the fences of private ownership. What is this? And when you have a process like this, and when you have a back and forth with the authorities, about the project. And we have protocols that prove the exact contrary. We have protocols that prove that this country works like a European country. We have protocols that prove in writing that the investors have been told many things about the vulnerability of the area, about the distance the development should keep from the lagoon, about this and that and that, about the parameters, about the intensity, about this and that. What do you think? When I say what do you think, I’m not addressing you personally. I’m saying, what is this? And how can one find a way to make the truth be seen and to make the truth be heard?

You know, I said day one, I said day one, I said day two, and then I gave up because I realised it’s not anymore about environment, it’s not anymore about anything else but about the sense that it’s time for us to take over. Good luck with that. But I told since day one, whoever is interested to talk about this, it’s welcome here.

And I’m here to talk about the project, to talk about the environment, to talk about the parameters, to talk about what we want to do, to talk about what we have done so far, to be shown the facts, the papers, the path, everything, to be shown what about the law on environment, what about all this completely untruthful, information, that we changed the law to make this happen. This is a lie, and I’m ready to prove it with facts. But how? How? How you prove facts in this world? And the answer, you know the answer? The answer was no. We don’t talk. We don’t listen. You have to resign.

Give it to her again because she has something to say.

-You said it’s not about the environment; I’ve been on the streets yesterday interviewing some people.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Listen, listen. You are here with me, talking with me asking me, wanting to know what I think. What you have done in the streets is not of my interest. And what you have heard in the streets it’s for your information. But you are asking me. And I’m not in the street. I’m not someone with no responsibility when I talk, because I represent this country.
I represent the people who elected me to be here, and in front of you, I have to be truthful, I have to be factual, and I cannot be challenged by what you heard in the street. So, do you have facts to show me that prove that I’m saying something that is not right? Show me.
-No, but I will ask my question very quickly because I think there are more questions. I met someone who said, “I’m going to the street because Zvernec is one of the last untouched coastal lines and river deltas in not only Albania but the Mediterranean.” So my question is, why would you, as a prime minister or your government, want to build there? Why wouldn’t you want to keep it as it is? Because it’s quite special, no?

Prime Minister Edi Rama: This is an absolutely legitimate question.
And this opens for an absolutely challenging and very, very important discussion. Yes. But what is wrong is the presumption that a country has to choose between nature and development. This is ideology. This is not what the best practices of this world tell. The country has to smartly find ways to make sure that nature and development coexist and don’t go against each other. Of course, very unpleasant things have been happening to nature in the path of development in this country.
But you have to understand that a lot of it is objectively impossible to erase from the why it happened. Albania got out of communism as the poorest country in Europe. Not compared to your countries, but compared even to the former communist countries, got out as the most isolated country. We were isolated from both the West and East. We were told that both are part of the same, so are two sides of the same coin, degenerated, corrupt. We were, for 50 years, obliged to live in a country where there was no private property in any shape or form. In any shape or form. In the former communist Europe, people had their cars. Here, there was no private car. Albania had buses, bicycles, trains, and only official cars. In total, 5,000 cars. We had no titles of property, just for you to know. We had houses, heritage from the past, but there’s no such thing in Albania as cadastre.

So we were told everything is ours, but nothing was individual. So that’s why I want to take it long, the pendulum of the 90s went on the other extreme, and that’s why in Albania we saw things that today everyone regrets. We saw plantations, endless plantations of oranges and lemons and mandarins that were built by all of us, used like slaves, to make terraces in the mountains because we didn’t have any enough arable land but we had to fight the world as the only communist country against everyone and we had to produce our bread here so we had to create arable land even in the mountains and we were used like slaves and all these plantations were gone were burnt in the outbursts that came after the fall of regime. We dismantled the railways, we burned schools, we burned kindergartens. It was a whole outrage. It was not a population of barbarians, but it was a population of slaves that found freedom and were terrified that the enemy might come back.

And as every time, when you get rid of an enemy beyond the bridge, you blow the bridge, which you will need yourself when the enemy is gone. Albanians did that. You come to Tirana here and you see a green city. There was no more green. I proudly say that, talking about environment, that 90% of the trees you see in the streets of Tirana were planted when I was mayor. Every, green space you see was occupied. Only from the river land we removed 132,000 tons of concrete by demolishing illegal buildings. And this is just a background to tell you that in the coast, when Albanians started to dream about their house, about their holidays. Our holidays were made in barracks, like soldiers. We had the timings of holidays and we were sent like soldiers in the barracks with our families. And the barracks were made of the cheapest wood. With a punch, you could get your hand out of the wall of your barracks.
Albanians started to dream about going and having their own holidays and they started to build. And the buildings of that time, of course, are ugly. Of course, a lot of pine trees were cut to build. A lot. A whole strip. It was a great mistake. But it was a mistake of a moment in history where you couldn’t ask more. We didn’t know even how to ask more.

Look at Calabria, look at other realities in Europe, how they destroyed, because there were periods in history. So this background serves to tell you, yes, Albanians, so the question is legitimate. Why? Why? The answer is very simple. Look at Montenegro. Montenegro has no agriculture.
Most Montenegrins, a lot, not mostly, what they consume comes from the region and comes from Albania. They don’t have agriculture, they don’t have factories, they don’t have anything else but tourism.
Then how come they have, for years, the highest wages, the highest pensions in this region? Because of bringing tourism to the level of luxury. It’s a few things that I can compare in their stupidity to the opposition to the luxury resorts as something against the people.
This is one of the stupidest things one can fuel because it’s the contrary. It’s the contrary. What one tourist brings in a luxury resort is more in terms of income for the country and is far less in terms of stress for traffic, for pollution and so on.
So, high-end tourism is what protects a country from what mass tourism can bring. Because mass tourism has been a great ambassador for Albania, has been spreading all over the world the voice that we were not the gloomy place where you could be robbed or raped and you could be killed, and there is mafia and there is drugs and there is corruption and all this. No, it’s a great country where you can have holidays, but we can’t keep going like that. We need to have high-end countries to change the scale of income for the country and to lower the pressure of mass tourism on the environment. You talk about the environment, it’s good, but let’s talk about environment.
Flamingos. You know when flamingos started to come back to Albania? They were not there. When I came to government, when we came to government, they were not there. You know why? Because Albania was the wildest spot for illegal hunting.

And we lost a lot of our wildlife because of illegal hunting. And flamingos started to come back together with the pelican and others. A few years after we put a moratorium in Albania, hunting became illegal for 10 years. We put a moratorium, cutting forests in Albania was illegal for 10 years.

There were no more licenses to cut forests in Albania. Ten years. And look at the satellite images where the country was and where it is today. And look at the registers, the wildlife in Albania, where it was and where it is today. So these are facts. These are not things I say, and you cannot verify. I know, I’m not sexy. I’m not a protester making joyful the soul making joyful the soul of all the ideologists all over the world. How tiny Albania is resisting oligarchs, how tiny Albania is becoming a shining city on the hill. We were a shining city on the hill for 50 years. We know how it sounds, how it looks, how it feels. But the facts are facts. So nobody can lecture me and us about the environment because we declared we have created the first law, the first map of protected areas in Albania in 2017, and the first register and the first inventory.

And just for you to know, we broke, we found Albania with less than 15% of protected areas and today we have close to 25%. It’s one of the countries with the largest surface of protected areas. And we have to hear that us, the Socialist Party of the Albanian government, with a very, very clear agenda of the environment, we, and we have changed the law to make room for Jared Kushner to destroy our coast. This is a lie. In 2024, we have made changes to specify what is allowed and what is not in the different categories of protection.
There is not one category of protection. In Europe, in the European standards, there are several categories of protection. There is category one: no touch, just preserve, just take care. There are two, there are six. That area has always been categorised. It has nothing to do with Vjosa and with Vjosa-Narta. It’s a lie. Vjosa-Narta, of the Vjosa River, of the park, is protected, is untouchable, it’s not being touched. This is a protected landscape. And a protected landscape is based on the standard and on the definition. EU It’s an area where you can build, there can be cities that are protected landscapes.

And what about if I tell you, one of the things that is conditioned for the project is to have more green after than before. How do you feel about it? What about if I tell you that we are working with the greatest landscape architects, the greatest urban architects, and the greatest environmental engineers? It’s a very large team working on that. And this project will be another, if not the best proof yet, this is what we aim, but another proof that nature and development, nature cannot be the curse being other people right people they want to want to grow gdp we want to bring our gdp we started with less than 10 billion when i became prime minister we are today a bit about the 27 billion in 2030 we want to go we are not gonna make make it through through carbonization by the way just for your knowledge for anyone to know we are 100 renewable you know 100 renewable we don’t have fossil fuel energy we don’t have gas producing and we have 100 percent Hydro, solar, and some other. And do you know that in 2028, at the end of 2028, Albania will be net exporter of green energy. Net exporter. We will not need to import energy from anyone anymore. And you are not obliged to know. The reason why the world is so excited about it is because of Donald Trump. Because I don’t think that the Flamingos in Albania would have created such an incredible fuss if it was not an occasion to go after Donald Trump. But this has nothing to do with Donald Trump. When Jared Kushner and Ivanka Trump came here, it was not clear if Donald Trump would go to jail or go back to the White House. And to me, they were American investors asking if they could have a chance in Albania. They were not the family of Donald Trump. Because, as I said, Donald Trump could have gone to jail. He was under many indictments at that time. But it was not for me to do so. And guess what?

I am, from one side, I am always the Soros guy. From the other side, now I am the Kushner guy. Find who I am. I’m the prime minister of Albania that I want everyone to come and to invest here, and I want everyone to be friends of this country, and I don’t think Albania should be fuel for political fights in America or elsewhere. This is my take on it.
And I want the project and every project to be judged based on facts. And the answer to the guy will be given by the project. If the project gives the answer, the project will go ahead. If the project does not give the answer, the project will have to improve. But 25% more, close to 25% more of nature, of green, of regeneration will be brought by the project. Because these are lines, these are the kind of goals we have. So whoever takes me for granted is wrong. I have never woken up a day in my life thinking about how to do something ugly. I’ve always believed that beauty is what we need, and I’ve always fought for beauty. Always successful? No.
You can’t. But today, Albania is the place, and I challenge you with facts, where the largest number of the best architects of the world are working together, separated, but for a project.

You can’t find this kind of concentration in any place in Europe. Why? Because we want beauty, we want quality, we want things, to happen that change forever this country and not just the perception of this country which has been unjustly built based on the whole bad things corruption, crime, drugs all of that is part of it as is part of all countries but brought out of proportion like the port of Antwerp, the port of Rotterdam the port of Barcelona, the port of Marseille are all in Albania.

One of these ports circulates more drugs than the whole GDP of Albania. These are the truths. And the question is, if I am a guy doing politics, if I’m a guy hoping and trying to serve my country, in the eyes of the Prime Minister, I am necessarily someone to be suspected, someone to be treated like a lowlife in front of whoever is in front of my building asking legitimate things. So it makes them morally more respectable than me. Why? Why? Because every politician is a thief? Because everyone is corrupt? Because the honesty and the virginity and the greenery are in the streets and in the buildings, in the institutions where all the tough things are dealt with, where all the difficult decisions are made, it’s just crooks, thieves and corrupt people?
It’s too easy. It’s too easy. And you are not coming from Facebook, you are not coming from Instagram, you are coming from places that still believe in journalism, that still believe, I hope, in truth. And you should still believe in facts. Because how we can deal with this ocean, ocean of lies that get bigger and bigger and bigger. And guess what? Half-truths have the potential to be the biggest lies. Because there is something true in it. But you add and add and add and add.. It’s a corroding truth, the democratic world is turning upside down everything we believed in. So this is my and just understand one thing. You are getting all this only for one reason. You are talking to the wrong person in the wrong place in the wrong time because you came after seven days of shit that has been flowing the world and of the powerlessness to look and to feel all these lies and to not be able to pass a simple fact, two simple facts, three simple facts. I say there is no project? And the comment of a big media outlet, but this protester says there is a project. What is this? Prime Minister Rama said there is no project, but listen to this protester, and there is a totally ignorant protester about the subject who says there is a project here, it will be, where is the project? Sorry, feel me.

-Prime Minister, thank you for having us. So help us to clarify some things. We have two projects, yes? The Sazan Island and on the coast.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: We have not two projects. We have two sites. No, no, no. But words in these days are very important. We have two sites.
-On the coast, the project is cancelled? Or suspended?

Prime Minister Edi Rama: No

-You said at the beginning it’s cancelled and after this…

Prime Minister Edi Rama: I never said it’s cancelled. Nothing was cancelled because there was never a project to cancel. You come here with your mind full of the lies that have blocked your brain, and nothing passes to your brain.

-No, my brain is very okay.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Your brain is okay, but the problem is how open it is to the facts.
– So you said at the beginning. You know…

Prime Minister Edi Rama: No, it’s not okay. I don’t take it. No, it’s not okay. We have others here, and they have to tell me. If everyone says, I said in the beginning we cancelled the project, then we have a problem. We have to go to the tape. I don’t continue. No, I can’t continue. Sorry, you told me something that I never said because you came here convinced that there is a project and that they cancelled.

I said in the beginning that the project was cancelled. Are you kidding me or what? She said that in the beginning, I said the project was cancelled, right? I didn’t say that. Because to cancel, are you real or what? But these are the things where we are having all this fog. I never said we cancelled the project because there was never a project. The project is being worked on.

So what is difficult to understand in this? Or it’s not sexy? No, sexy in the sense appealing. Facts are not sexy, no? Facts are not sexy. Facts are boring. Lies are very sexy. This is what every day I learn with all that is spread in all the platforms. Because, again, I spoke here half an hour and you didn’t listen to me.
How to help you?
-What is the difference between a project and when the project was cancelled?

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Are you real? What is the difference between there is no project and the project is cancelled? You don’t see the difference? Really? You don’t see the difference? To cancel a project, you should have one. Otherwise, what do you cancel? You got it? What is this? Are you real?
So, you don’t see the difference between there is no project and the project being cancelled? Is there no difference? No?
– So, I put this question because I asked you to clarify the things. Yeah, because you said at the beginning I could send you after.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Don’t insist in that. Okay. My grandmother used to say. My grandmother used to say Making a mistake is human. Persisting is diabolic. Don’t insist on that.
-So the project is now suspended.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Listen, listen. What project is suspended? What are you talking about?

-On the coast, on the site.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: But how is suspended when the project does not exist? Why do you say now the project is suspended? What project is suspended?

-Because all the authorities said this.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Which authorities? The ambassador of the EU, here, he said that the project is suspended. Which ambassador of the EU said to you? When he said to you?

-This morning.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: No, I don’t know what he said. If he said this, it’s wrong. Because there is no project suspended. But I understand you. Listen, I have a friend. This is real. This is very real. I believe that you really believe it because I have a friend, friend of mine, and I had to meet him for some reasons. And he said to me, I’m late. It’s okay, no problem. And then he comes and I tell him, do you have any problem? He said, Edi I was in protest. I said, you were in protest? Yes.
Yeah. The guy is a very good man, very highly educated Muslim and not a fanatic at all. But he used to go to the mosque. I said, but why you protest? He said, Listen, man, I love you. You know, my loyalty to you as a friend. I trust you. But with this fence to implement what Bibi Netanyahu wants, you have gone too far. I said, Man, you are talking to me. I’m not on social media. Your mind has been occupied by that, and you believe that, but this is not true. So I understand you. Your mind has been captured by this thing, the project is cancelled, the project is suspended, it’s being repeated and repeated and repeated in many fields, so your mind has been captured. Again, so your mind has been captured by this lie, because it’s a lie, it’s a lie, because the project has never been suspended, has never been cancelled, because first of all, it has never been approved.
Guess what? So you cannot cancel something that has not been approved. You cannot suspend something that has not been approved. The project is being worked as we speak. And I’m telling you again and again and again, you continue. It’s crazy. So now it’s not my word against yours. It cannot be my word. You are the journalist. So you have to find the project that has been cancelled. It’s not my word against yours. So it’s about facts.

You have to show, say, the Prime Minister, look at the project. This is your sign. This is the building permit. Why are you lying? So, since the Romans, I guess, we have embraced a civilisation that has always been based on the principle who has a claim, who has an accusation, has to prove, not who is accused. And I’m telling you, I don’t see any proof of all this. And I say there is no project. I say there is no environmental assessment yet. I say that for the project are working the biggest, among the biggest guys. I’m saying that for the environmental assessment is working as best as possible. And I’m saying, wait to see. Wait to see.
Don’t prejudge. Don’t show me flamingos. Flamingos are among those rare birds that have shown more than once that they live together with people. Flamingos live together with people. Flamingos are part of touristic destinations where people go of high end. So you want proofs.

You can find easy, go on the internet and ask “flamingos and people” and you will be surprised how many pictures you’ll have of flamingos with elderly people, with kids, flamingos walking in the paths of resorts with people. So, what can I tell you? Wait to see. What is this? I know it’s boring, but these are facts.

-So you can ask you a question.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Yeah, sure, sure. More than one.

– If there’s no project, why is that?

Prime Minister Edi Rama: This is another question. And again, I said it from the beginning. Yes, of course, we will do it. This I said from the beginning. We will do it. We will develop these areas. This is, of course, something we’ll do. Oh, my God. And then I am the guy that I’m not nice to journalists. My God. Yes.
No, it’s not confusing. It is. Okay, so do you have a house? Do you want another house? For example, I’m just saying. Exactly. So, if you plan to have a house, right? Let’s say, not you personally, but you marry someone, and you want to have a house together, right?

It’s a project. This is called a project. No, the project is when you get the house, when you get the house, when you draw. The planning, yes, the planning, the thing. But this is first is a vision, is an idea, and then you develop the project.

Of course, if you ask this, of course. I never… I said this is something that has been clear to the Albanian people, to Albania, since two and three or three years. It’s clear. It’s on record. I campaigned and I said in Zvernec we will make something that will be stunning. So this is clear. These are two different levels. I’m sorry. I’m so sorry.

When you say cancel the project, if you mean cancel the idea, I say to you, no, never. But the guys are not saying to cancel the idea; they’re saying to cancel the project. I say, there’s no project. So these are two different things. Not yet. They are working. Are you listening to me? When they’re ready, it’s not me. It’s the investors that are working with me, great architects, great engineers, and when they bring their tangible plan, then we will see. So they brought a concept which is like a master plan.
And we have given so many indications of what is acceptable and what is not acceptable, and they will have to come with a project. So this is the project for me. If you’re asking, do you have the vision? Yes, I have. Do you have the idea? Yes, I have. Do you have the ambition? Yes, I have. Do you want it to happen? Yes, I will make it happen. So this is what is clear. But the question Is it a rational debate to say no without even seeing what the intent is? Or is it rational to say, let’s see the intent and let’s talk? These are two different things, in my view.

-Prime Minister, I have one question about the Euro integration. Is this protest here on the street of Tirana, is it a reflect of Euro integration? Are you afraid that …

Prime Minister Edi Rama: What it has to do with European integration? The protest shows that we are like every European countries. They are full of protests. So what is the problem?

-Because the European Commission told sthat if protests continues…

Prime Minister Edi Rama: The European Commission told what? Told that maybe if the protests continue… Which European Commission tells you these kind of things? I didn’t hear these kind of things. I don’t think there is a European Commission… What? I don’t think there is a European Commission that can say if protests continue, the country is not European.

-And is this a realistic goal to integrate it into the European Union in 2030?

Prime Minister Edi Rama: It is based on what we have agreed with the Commission to conclude the negotiations at the end of ’27. And then we have two years, based on how it went for the others, for the ratifications. And so 2030 comes from this assessment. You can ask me anything you want.

-Going back to this back and forth. Okay, going back to this back and forth. So you say there are experts, environmental architects working on your vision, trying to get this on ground, and once they have these ideas ready, there will be an environmental assessment of this idea brought on paper as a complete project, right?

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Listen, because I don’t understand. Maybe it’s something wrong with me, but
I don’t understand what this discussion is. Listen, this is not a banana republic. This is a country where institutions and laws work. So we don’t need to invent anything and let’s not keep going with this back and forth, because maybe you are overwhelmed by all the shit you have got

I’m even more overwhelmed by all the shit I’ve gone through, all these lies that are bigger and bigger, and nobody understands what’s going on. I’m saying it very simply. To get permission in this country, you have to go through a process, right? So if you have a project, to me, a project does not mean I have a dream because Walt Disney once said,

Just for you to take it from me, the difference between a dream and a project is a deadline, right? So if you say project because you have it in mind, it’s not a project; it’s a dream. Walt Disney taught me this. A project is something that has to do with deadlines. So something tangible. So they have to present a project. They have presented, first of all, that this is private land. They have made a deal with landowners to buy the land. And they have bought the land. It was spread all over another lie that Jared Kushner was put under investigation or the project was put under investigation. This is a lie, nothing true. The simple fact is that one of the landowners with a title of property that sold his part was under investigation for other reasons, and the transaction has been put in an escrow account. So the investors bought the land, they are the owners today, the money will stay there until this is clarified, and if the owner is legit, he’ll take the money. If he’s not, the government of Albania will take the money, so just to be clear.
Then, having the land, having presented the expression of interest, they have to come now to ask for permission to build. So they have to fulfil all the criteria. And there is no permission to build if there is not an environmental impact assessment when the building is happening in an area that has to do with nature, has to do with wildlife and all this. So this is how it happens in every country. We have the same pattern everywhere, as in European countries.

So I don’t understand all this in terms of the legality. Of course, when the project comes, we’ll make it public. Of course, we’ll make it public, because we’ll make it public with pride. I know what’s coming because I know who is working on it. People like Kengo Kuma or Jean Nouvel are not people who have a track record of destroying nature.

People like Dong Yugan are people who have reinvented landscape architecture. And there is another thing. Since when in Europe have you seen or have we seen projects that come as a punch against nature? It doesn’t exist anymore. Since when has the big capital gone for speculation? Tourism. Since when? In the high end. You think Cheval Blanc, Bernard Arnault, will come to destroy the coast of Albania or will put his name and his brand in a project that will be killing flamingos? You think Rosewood Hotel, which is very highly reputed for being in many of the role models of the new generation of environmentally friendly touristic destinations, will come here to sell mojitos in the middle of concrete? You think Mandarin Oriental will be connected with something that is ugly? You think Amman Hotel will come to stay in the middle of a new generation of bankers? What are you talking about?

Manhotel will come to stay in the middle of a new generation of bankers? What are you talking about? You could. You can.
Say it again? I have to check. I don’t know. It’s not the Book of Albania. It’s the Albanian Files. It’s called the Albanian Files. I don’t know. It was presented at the festival. Now I don’t know how it goes with distribution. I have a big problem getting 30 copies. One will do, but why you are the one that deserve this copy, I’m not sure. But you are from the same, you live in the same place. We’ll find a copy. I’ll give you mine. I’ll give you my copy to share. As many questions as they want. It’s important that finally we got, I hope, in a common ground about what the project is and what the dream is.

– Coming back to enlargement, 2027 is just around the corner. What reform are you asking Albania to complete by then, and do you have to change the law about strategic investment to create a more fair level playing field, or is it not an issue for you in this aspect? Thank you.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Listen, the law of strategic investments has never been unfair just to start with, and many people who talk about it don’t know what they talk about, but the good thing is that we will let it out because it has fulfilled its mission, and It doesn’t matter. We are not going to fight for it anymore. We’re not going to tell anymore that the assessment is wrong. We are simply going to let it out. But the law on strategic investment helped us to bring to this country finally some investments that otherwise would not have happened. Now we don’t need any more laws on strategic investment because capital is coming and big investors are coming and they don’t really care. Of course, they want some protective status and things like that, but we don’t have a problem with that.
So, I think it’s part of the negotiating framework that we are already working on in the new law for investments. We are working with the EU. So everything that we do is based on the EU standards. And this is another very clear thing. So Albania can dream and can envisage and can make everything that Albania might want or the government or whomever, but there is one guarantee, for everyone, that no such thing as an environmentally damaging operation can happen because it has to be within the EU standards.
So, and that’s why I said, you know, there’s years now in Europe you don’t see any more developments that are harming environment not because people want to do them and it’s not allowed but there is a new there is a it’s a complete new world out there of tourism and and to compete to compete is very clear you can’t compete by neglecting nature it’s not possible so that’s why I I am angry with with everyone that doesn’t understand that it’s a blessing to bring in an investiment of 4 million euros.This is why I’m angry, but angry with myself, of course, not with you.
Do you have any more questions?

-Within 2027, because of the request of the European Commission, or am I wrong? I just want to write it correctly.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Madam, it’s written. With the Commission, a whole list of things to do, a to-do list. It’s written. It’s not that we are going to do it. It’s written. There is a deadline and it’s going to fade away. And in the meantime, we are working on the new law on investments.

So, it’s written. It has nothing to do with what’s happening in the street and has nothing to do with anything that is around this story. It’s something that has been written for a long time and the end of ’27 has been there, left, but we may have it even before because we are working on the new law. So, the moment will come, and the new law takes time because the Commission must investigate it. So, if the new law is ready this year, we’ll do it this year. So, it’s out of discussion. It’s not related to this story. It has nothing to do with this story. This is my point. That’s why I made this.

It has nothing to do with this story. This story is a total derailed story, totally derailed subject. So it’s a subject out of rails. You know, talking about things that do not exist, talking about fake things. We are working and we’ll come out, but not now. We’ll wait for a calmer moment, and we are working on the Flamingo files. And we’ll come out, and we’ll show to you a lot of about how much engineering and how much deepfake and how much misinformation is being spread from sources that are using it and from sources that are simply multiplying it.

So we know as a fact, it’s not that we dream, but we know as a fact that there are actors who are trying to use it by using penetration. And there are others that are trying to use it for their own agendas, which has nothing to do with Albania as a target, but have to do with Albania as an interesting spot to energise American politics. But it’s a lot of it, and we are going to publish it, only facts, not stories.

Again, I’m telling you, I’m not talking about malicious actors. There is one malicious actor, Iran. This is something that we know for a fact. And you cannot, I never said, and I don’t say that Iran invented it. I’m saying that Iran jumped into it right away. And we are at war with Iran, cyber, for some years now. They have organised a very, very brutal cyber terror attack against Albania to wipe out all our digital infrastructure. Some years ago, they didn’t succeed. We were obliged to invest a lot, and we have, as we speak, one of the best cyber walls in Europe. And this is something recognised also within NATO.

And we know them. We know them, we know the patterns, we know the roots, so it’s very clear to us that they are trying to fuel. Because who has the interest to fuel, to engineer an anti-Semitic, anti-Israel, anti-Jewish narrative? What does the flag of Israel have to do with this development? What does Gaza have to do with this? So this is one and has had attraction here. The rest is competitors. We have had a lot of fake news coming from the competition, in terms of tourism, I mean. And the rest are well-meaning people. Like you, you are well-meaning people. You want the best for Albania. But it would not be a mistake to say that among you there are people who have retweeted, or maybe not, but I’ve seen in platforms journalists and public figures and retweeting 100,000 protesters. So, it’s the world we live in. It’s crazy, but it’s like that. While the story is very simple. There is an interest in a big consortium of investors to bring in a country a big capital and the company that is in charge of it is one of the superpowers of the Middle East, power holding. You can go and see what they’ve done, and they also have some projects that they have done on a few islands, and they speak for themselves.

So, they have engaged the biggest, I mean, top people in all the sectors. We have put a lot of road signals about what we expect. Environmental assessments will be done, and then we’ll have the project. So, this is just a big, big assault to kill a project before it’s born. This will not happen. I will not allow it. Simple. And if the project is as I think it will be, everyone will see for themselves. If the project does not fulfil all our ambitions, we will ask to improve. But to tell this investment to go away because we must keep that part of Albania intact? No. Go there, go there, see for yourself how big problems there are in that forest in terms of maintenance, in terms of cleaning and so forth. So, any other?

-I have a question concerning catastrophe, because you said there was no catastrophe, the same problem they had in part of Poland, one of the biggest new members. So how is it today? Is there already a catastrophe? Is everything accessible, electronically?

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Now you open here a big wound, because this is the saddest story of our path towards becoming a democratic country. As I said, the regime we had was the most ruthless and the most isolationist regime among all the former communist regimes, in terms of property. But there was one thing that the regime did not do. They could have done it, but they didn’t. They didn’t destroy the titles of property, so the old ones they kept it kept them all in very very secure metallic boxes they were sealed nobody could open but they were secure what happened after the fall of the regime was that they were opened and they were they were they were mistreated big time a lot of them a lot of the titles were destroyed, a lot were replaced with faults. And so the catastrophe became a problem. But what happened in reality was even harsher, which didn’t occur in Poland. So the pendulum, as I said, went to the other extreme, and people started to move big time. Because during communism, we couldn’t decide where to live. So everyone had to live where he or she was told, based on a plan, a big plan of distribution of labour and of skills. So there was no freedom of movement in Albania during communism. So you could move, you could take the bus and go, but you couldn’t settle anywhere else than where you were told to stay. And people didn’t move much.

So people didn’t move much from there. What happened was that then people moved big time. A lot of people from the big cities, relatively from the urban centers, let’s say, moved towards Italy. A lot of people from the south moved towards Greece. A lot of people from the poorest areas moved towards the urban area. And so, Albania, so Tirana, that came out of communism with around 220,000 people, in 10 years, doubled by people surrounding it and then tripled. So people surrounding them, meaning people occupying land, occupying land wherever they could and first starting with little tents and then like the favelas. So, you can recall what I’m saying when you take the flight, look from the window, and you’ll see all the single houses that you see around the core are part of that story. And in the 90s, where today there are single houses with two floors or three floors, there were barracks. But this created another layer of ownership. And so, we had the old owners. Then, in 1991, the parliament gave a paper that was called the Act of Use of Land to all farmers because cooperatives had disappeared. So, it was not ownership, but they could take the land. And on the land, there were buildings. So, a third layer.

And this created a lot of tensions and a lot of problems. And by the way, what happened with this owner in Zvernec is not a single story. There have been many developments that you have an owner who has a title, and you make an agreement, and then someone else pops up and says, “I was the owner, but in the 90s, they gave it to him, but it belongs to me. So this goes through legal processes back and forth, back and forth. But the substance is now we are bringing it together. So, we are digitalising the cadastre and we’re bringing it together. We have a project with you, sorry, financial support. So with you, financial support and with some good expertise, we are closing the gaps and the aim is that at the end of 2028, the cadastre will be digitalised and at least will not have any more moving and shaking properties. So are you good with me? All clear?

-No.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: Listen, you are for a reason from Romania.

-About the sazan Island are there any plans for it?

What do you want to know about Sazan? Again.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: But I said it from the beginning. I said it from the beginning. Of course. I said it from the beginning. There are two sides. The difference among the two is that Sazan Island is public. It’s public land. There are no owners, thanks God, there. It’s the state. So, as we speak, since three years now, just to see the big, big, big, big, big, big, big gap between what your mind has been filled with and what reality is. There is not yet a deal. So, because Southern Island does not need a project first, needs a deal. Understand? Because they cannot have a project if they don’t have a deal about the land. So, we don’t have a deal on Southern Island yet. Why? Because we are negotiating since two years. Why? Because we are not selling the Island. And to be fair to them, they didn’t ask to buy the Island. They never asked to buy the Island. This is the truth. But even if they would ask, we never imagined the option of selling the Island. What is the deal about?

They will have a joint venture between the investors and the Albanian and the Republic of Albania, a joint venture. The Island belongs to the Albanian people, to the Albanian Republic, and will continue to be an asset of the Albanian Republic. But of course, where it will be built will be ownership. So, the entity itself, yes.

Like the guys in front are owners of the apartments, but they are not owners of the boulevard, right? So, this is the same logic. And we are negotiating. So, you understand why I’m not even angry. I’m frustrated. Frustrated to the core because, you know, looking at all these pictures, the Southern Ireland developed with Trump Tower and shame to Adirama and to the government. They saw, this is crazy. It’s all the other way around. We are negotiating with them

The Albanian Investment Corporation must make the negotiation and to have the part of the ownership of the investment. So, the Albanian state will gain from that. And to the Island, for the Island, they have not yet presented any sketch because first they need a deal.

They are focused on Zvernec because there is private. And they have the deal there. They are focused there and we are going back and forth with them.

(The journalist asks for a dedication on her book, to the prime Minister)

You want dedication. So I’m going to write for my Irish flower from a Flamingo killer. So I’ll give you the dedication, but make sure your husband understands. It is a beautiful book.

Prime Minister Edi Rama: For what? For who do you write? For which profile. I don’t read German, but I’ll make sure to read what you will make of my three hours of spending energy here. I’m very curious. My message to people going to the street depends on because there are very different people going to the street.

So, for example, there are a lot of chants here, “Death to Edi Rama”. So, my message to them is to keep going because this makes my life longer. Other people come because they are related to some groups that have political ambitions.

There are some people who come because they are concerned. And to them, I always say, if you are really concerned about Zvernec, let’s talk. But when I say let’s talk, their answer is, we never talk to him. Because he is a devil that changes our minds. This is his answer. Because I have this power to change their minds. But it’s not my power; it’s the facts. So, until you prove the contrary, prove, not think, you can think the contrary, but until you prove the contrary, I can tell you that facts are with me while the whole digital realm is against me. And this is a big question, not for me, not for Albania, not for Zvernec, not for this moment, but it’s a big question for the future of democracies. There are, to me, two things that are happening. This is beyond Albania.

Number one is that this capacity of capturing the brains and the souls of people through lies and basically, to say lies is not fair. It’s half-truths. It’s worse. It’s horrible, has the capacity to corrode the whole democratic system and to turn mainstream politics into the most uneatable, the most undrinkable and the most undigestible thing for people. So, I see a very clear correlation between the decline of mainstream politics in all of Europe with this capacity. And the other thing I see is that while we are putting in billions, and sometimes billions we don’t have, by the way, borrowing from the next generations without their permission to build the almightiest military machine and to shield the sky of Europe from missiles. We are totally unshielded from within, and we are like a house with no doors, no windows, where every thief from every part of the world that wants to steal what has to be stolen in our soul can enter. Everyone. It’s totally open.

And then you are familiar, you know, the Russian interference in this election, this interference in this election, this interference in this election. This is just the very, very, very little, little visible part of the iceberg. It’s not the interference of the election. It’s the capturing and taking hostage of our kids and of our young generation.

And I’m not implying here anything about what’s happening, but this is really crazy. Crazy under our watch in the name of freedom. So equalizing freedom of speech with freedom of reach is practically not having understood anything about dictatorships. What is the main power of a totalitarian regime? I have lived in one in the capacity of reach. So a totalitarian regime has the capacity to reach everywhere and to block the facts, or let’s say, the facts, the reality, from reaching anywhere. This is what dictators do. This is what this thing does. Freedom of reach in the name of freedom of speech. Everywhere, everywhere, everywhere. How is it not possible? And I don’t know if it’s anyone from Sweden here, but I’ve seen a very interesting report of a Swedish Institute for Democracy talking about how environmental subjects are at the number one list of the preferred subjects for the malicious actors to interfere in democratic countries because they are very sensitive for people.

Because usually people who are sensitive towards the environment have a higher level of blindness when it comes to arguments, because they are passionate, they are fanatics about it, and they are very easily manipulated. This is what I’m seeing. But to conclude, I would say that

Finally, this will be very good for our country. This thing, this whole thing. This will be very good for our country. It’s beneficial for our democratic life. As long as it remains funny and peaceful, I find it funny when they want to fuck everyone who is related to me and me too, in the literal sense, I find it funny. But also,

It’s funny with the memes, it’s funny with many things. It’s nice, let’s say, in a good way. And there are a lot of kids that find it joyful to be there. As far as things like that, it’s good. Because I think then the reality check will happen and then everyone will take lessons from that.

We will take our lessons, of course, we need to learn from that, how to deal further with education, transparency, or whatever. But the problem with transparency is that it doesn’t work when there is no attention. You’ll be surprised, but Zvernec’s project, like a vision, so visually has been presented two years ago by an architect that was representing the investors before the group got larger and the thing. But there was some sketches that Jared never made the way to us but they were presented, like a vision. So visually, it has been presented two years ago by an architect that was representing the investors. Before, the group was larger and the thing, but there were some sketches. As published in his Twitter, you remember? And there were sketches. So these sketches, that never made the way to us, were presented in an interview in the highest audience TV show by him. And that sketch is much more built than what it will be. And there was no outreach. There was nobody saying “Wow, don’t touch it!” Nobody! It was there. So, “Don’t touch it!” There was nobody saying “Wow, don’t touch it!” And there was a sketch. And by the way, that sketch is much more built than what it will be. And there was no outreach. There was nobody saying “Wow, don’t touch it!” Nobody! It was there. So, there is what I told you in the beginning, and you saw me… What I said is all about you. It’s facts are boring. Truth is boring.

Lies are sexy, are attractive. And you can’t challenge with… Why do they say we don’t want to talk? Because they don’t want to face facts. Because they don’t want their dream and their feeling that they are fighting for their country to be destroyed by facts.

I had the same, I had a similar thing, much bigger than this, in 2018, with students. It was bigger, much bigger. It was awesome. It was in all the boulevards and roads and all the students. And they came out and they were asking for some conditions. It was three weeks or something like that. They didn’t want to talk about it, as they came here and they had points one two three four five. I said, sorry we need to talk I need to understand point by point and you need to listen to me point by point otherwise I don’t work for you, I’m not your employee to tell me do this do this do that I serve you and I have to tell you, because and they were saying It’s very dangerous because he is devil and he can turn your mind upside down. But it’s not that. It is this feeling that you are going towards something big and you are fighting for something even bigger. And this makes you not want to face reality. Right?

-Who are they? Which organizations?

Prime Minister Edi Rama: No, no. They, I mean, they. I don’t know who, because it’s not an organization that said we don’t. And the interesting thing is that people who want to talk are afraid, because they are threatened. So, there is a dimension of threat in the protests, in every protest. So, they are threatened. They are threatened physically, don’t dare to go talk. It’s like this old trade union that who breaks the ranks? Patience. I learned patience. It’s something I never had before, but I learned patience. So, I’m patient.

Thank you so much.

I hope it was not boring. This is the most important. How much of it will be useful? remain to be seen, but I hope it was not boring.

Thank you.